Monday, March 14, 2016
Lewis Henry Bowman and Joseph Edward Bruchac Research Time Line Part 3:
January 12, 2016
Douglas Buchholz: Are you still sending you and your fathers kits back?
Jesse Bruchac: I plan on using at least mine; but a little wrinkle came about
Jesse Bruchac: Some Bowman you contacted then he contacted my dad and it spooked him big time.
Jesse Bruchac: Now my dad is saying I [Jesse Bruchac] can't trust you.
Jesse Bruchac: That's one reason I'm so pumped you got the other DNA and Y-DNA.
Yeah he [Joe Bruchac] just said to stay away from you.
Jesse Bruchac: Is it [the DNA] from the Lewis Bowman line?
Jesse Bruchac: He said he would do it [meaning the DNA testing] alone, without you involved, but I'm not pushing him.
Jesse Bruchac: He [Joseph Edward Bruchac III] took a leap of faith / which I respect / and I have joined him on it.
Douglas Buchholz: I also have another Bowman descendant’s kit coming tomorrow.
Jesse Bruchac: Is this Bowman in our line?
Douglas Buchholz: YES
Jesse Bruchac: Sweet
Douglas Buchholz: I wouldn't be testing him if he wasn't. LOL
Jesse Bruchac: From the Queensbury, NY crew?
Douglas Buchholz: I know he's from John Bowman and Catherine Dewey.
Jesse Bruchac: Descended from Forest?
Douglas Buchholz: I really can't ethically state who the testers are without their permission.
Douglas Buchholz: Its four steps out … with two between
Jesse Bruchac: Very cool. I’d love to see what of their Bowman DNA I carry
Jesse Bruchac: My mom also may have some native lines way back …
Jesse Bruchac: She has Bedell’s and others in VT as well as mid-west Oklahoma ancestry
Douglas Buchholz: So why is your Dad so concerned … If you don't mind me asking?
Jesse Bruchac: He sent me the email. The guy said you are trying to destroy him and disprove his native ancestry and sent a letter of your blog on us.
Jesse Bruchac: He feels now you have an agenda. Proof is hard to find as I said in my first songs on Aln8bak LOL
But I support your efforts and understand why others find them suspect.
I've always been a fan of using new technology; as you know DNA is just a new tool and should prove very interesting!!
The Natick Bowman starting with William is super interesting!!
I mapped it out as best I could but no clue where it begins or where the family scurried off to after selling big chunks of Massachusetts
William, John and Samuel Bowman
I'm thinking of a book on them at some point, they left a lot of records and mysteries behind them
Jesse Bruchac: It was this and being contacted by the Wampanoag’s [with the Bowman- Bruchac Time Line] a couple months back both added up to him just not wanting to work with you. But he has no ill will or anger towards you.
Jesse Bruchac: He [Joseph Edward Bruchac Jr.] remembers you as a fine artist (his words)
Jesse Bruchac: The Bowman line though likely goes back to a white [Caucasian] Bowman so who knows (Unless it's a name change).
Jesse Bruchac: One question is: Were there Bowman’s in Massachusetts in 1630? Likely but none I can find in Plymouth.
So on William Bowman born around then … I wonder why the last name (?) and I want to research it big time
Douglas Buchholz: I hope that you and your father do send your DNA kits in, of your own accord, without my involvement.
Jesse Bruchac: I will talk with him [Joseph E. Bruchac Jr.]. Maybe after we get some results from this Y-DNA line he'll be more inclined.
Douglas Buchholz: Samuel Bowman is ALLEGEDLY the son of 1-2 and then William Bowman of Natick.
Jesse Bruchac: Yes Joseph Bowman is one of their main guys.
Douglas Buchholz: It’s an interesting dynamic to explore, but it might not be your lineage....
It might be but we don't know (yet).
Jesse Bruchac: Yeah connecting William then John then Samuel then Joseph is tricky
Yea I've seen no connection
Just the name
Douglas Buchholz: They moved around and were poor so being in the records is going to be sketchy just like Vermont's resident African people
Jesse Bruchac: I'm sure they too were mixed white and black listed as mulatto often
Douglas Buchholz: I am saddened to read that your father thinks that my questioning is simply a matter of allegedly trying to 'destroy' your Dad's work or anyone else's. Why not try to find Lewis Bowman's connections, whether he's Native or not eh?
Live Life. DNA doesn't change that.
One doesn't have to be Abenaki to be Abenaki these days.
Jesse Bruchac: Like I’ve said many believe in God too … No proof there or needed
Douglas Buchholz: What puzzles me is WHY I can't find Charles Bowman or Bauman and a Sophie Senecal/ Laframboise/ Rasberry.
Jesse Bruchac: They are mysteries. Maybe fabricated who knows? His Civil War Pension is whacked.
Douglas Buchholz: Would it change you or your father, IF the Y-DNA came back English or the like?
I would hope not!
Jesse Bruchac: Of course not; and likely considering the name etc. I know many natives who fail the DNA tests.
Jesse Bruchac: Family history is very complex as you know and just gets more so these days i.e., Bruce Jenner lol
Douglas Buchholz: Please, if you so choose, inform your father kindly, that I am NOT out to destroy anyone.
Douglas Buchholz: Previously you mentioned Jesse that, "He sent me the email. The guy said you are trying to destroy him and disprove his native ancestry and sent a letter of your blog on to us."
Douglas Buchholz: WHO SENT AN EMAIL FW from me and can you send me that email that I allegedly constructed?
I am pretty sure I know where in the blog he was looking:
Douglas Buchholz: I noticed that blog post was way back in 2013 in Feb.
Jesse Bruchac: I honestly don't him
Douglas Buchholz: You didn't get his name? Yet he sent you the email? Or an email?
Jesse Bruchac: Between you and me his name is Mike Levet
Douglas Buchholz: Ok, BETWEEN you and me, I am going to FORWARD you the emails I sent to him
Jesse Bruchac: But I don't know him.
Douglas Buchholz: I told you I was and am going to be up front with you and straight forward.
I want YOU to know EXACTLY verbatim what I typed and sent to him.
Jesse Bruchac: I wouldn't worry about it
Douglas Buchholz: I am not worried or the like.
Jesse Bruchac: My Dad’s fine and may actually still do the test.
Douglas Buchholz: But trying to imply that I am attempting to destroy his native ancestry is a bit much.
Jesse Bruchac: I think it's the tone of your blog. Many people see it that way to be honest.
Douglas Buchholz: Yes, I would just change the password and that locks me out of seeing his or your results. Though I was hoping to work WITH you both.
Jesse Bruchac: You come across like you have an axe to grind with the "wanabenakis" or whatever degrading term you used (wink emoticon) You have a lot of haters my friend but I'm sure you are aware of this
Douglas Buchholz: Well as the Devil says right along with God "Get in line" … and “Take a number”.
Douglas Buchholz: I just sent you both of the ONLY sent communications to Michael Levet...
Jesse Bruchac: It's no big deal. I'll read them though
Douglas Buchholz: I don't get it where I am implying that I am doing what he has implied I have. It confuses me but doesn't bother me now that I know who it is.
Just between you and me. If I didn't have a thick skin I wouldn't be doing this work.
Douglas Buchholz: If the DNA shows native or leads us to it, where is the negative agenda on my part?
Just change the passwords and test yourselves. You will match these other Bowman’s I am testing.
I just want to find Lewis Bowman's ancestors paper trail whoever they are.
Jesse Bruchac: Perfect. I'm in.
Jesse Bruchac: Yeah you kind’a gone off like a dick saying “Joseph Bruchac’s say-so?”
From Michael Levet’s email from my person on Jan. 11, 2016 wherein I stated (quote)
“Myself I am looking for Lewis Bowman's ancestors, aside from relying just on Joe Bruchac's say-so.
I am seeking definitives and proof paper trail as to Lewis' ancestral lineage.”
[Definition of Say–so: a statement that is not supported by any proof. One's unsupported assertion or assurance]
Jesse Bruchac: Umm, this is not nice to talk to others in someone's family that's not your own IMHO
I think Mike was defending his family
Douglas Buchholz: Oh. Ok. Clarify. Please.
Jesse Bruchac: People don't like others creeping when not related … but I’m sure you've felt this before.
“Myself I am looking for Lewis Bowman's ancestors, aside from relying just on Joe Bruchac's say-so. I am seeking definitives and proof paper trail as to Lewis' ancestral lineage”
The rest seems legit but that likely sent him [Joseph Bruchac Jr. and or Michael Levet] into not trusting you.
Douglas Buchholz: Well that is true. I am not trying to rely ‘on just your Dad's perceptions’ and so on
I do understand what you’re saying though.
Jesse Bruchac: … Then [Michael Levet] seeing your blog = Red flags!! = “This guy is trying to destroy you Joe.”
Just saying I see where he gets it. I have had many people ask if I'm pissed about your blog
I'm always like … whatever he has a right to his opinions.
Douglas Buchholz: If I was trying to destroy someone I wouldn't be posting that intention and then asking for their help through, such as yourself and your father.
Jesse Bruchac: But my dad had never seen it. Your tone in the blog is often condescending. As if he was lying etc … That's what rubs people.
Douglas Buchholz: Well when you 'see' what I do, it is difficult not to get condescending. It’s a matter of perception(s) indeed
Jesse Bruchac: Assumptions and leaps of faith are one thing and rarely backed up by facts.
Yup … perception and point of view.
Douglas Buchholz: I mean that was back in Feb 2013 and its now 2016. Perceptions change too.
Jesse Bruchac: We believe in the end what we want to believe when facts are scarce
Douglas Buchholz: And that is what I am after … is FACTS.
Jesse Bruchac: Me too and that's why we work together so well
Jesse Bruchac: I do understand your tone and it's never bothered me. Hard questions and questions in general are the only way to find truth.
Jesse Bruchac: But please know I'm always honest with you based on my particular biased opinions
Jesse Bruchac: I will say, as a family our intentions, are pure and I know you know that
I love the language hence my involvement whether I have native ancestry or not it matters to me.
Jesse Bruchac: My dad actually stood up for you as I said
Jesse Bruchac: He told Mike you were a good guy and a great artist who I have remained friends with. Over 20 year’s nid8ba
Jesse Bruchac: He just agreed he didn't feel he could trust you, but that's understandable, when we look at the facts in play here.
Douglas Buchholz: Again = perception
Jesse Bruchac: You and I can play together under everyone's radar … Finding truth … And pissing people off along the way.
March 08, 2016
It’s just a probability
Not enough info to prove anything
As far as ancestry with DNA
Douglas Buchholz: Joseph Sénécal dit Laframboise and his wife Marie Josephte Geneviève Gosselin.
Their son Jean Baptiste Pierre Sénécal dit Laframboise moved into Rutland County, Vermont as well.
Jesse Bruchac: And we are connected to them? Likely looking at the family finder matches?
Douglas Buchholz: Yes that is true, somewhat, but we are ONLY talking about 1-2-3-4 steps; Not 9-10- or 18 steps out.
IF Lewis Bowman or Jesse were Abenakis or Obomsawin's it would show on the autosomal and or Y
And that kindly, and respectfully, is NOT showing at all.
Jesse Bruchac: Not totally true. We don't know all the Abenaki DNA.
We KNOW what the Bowman DNA is showing and what it is not.
Bowman's are NOT O'bomsawin’s.
Jesse Bruchac: I agree the direct Y [Bowman] ancestor is not an O’Bomsawin.
Douglas Buchholz: And IF Lewis Henry Bowman and or his son Jesse or John etc were Abenakis, it would show it.
Jesse Bruchac: But that's one of 10,000 or so not accounted for
Douglas Buchholz: Even if their spouses were Native, it would show it, and it isn't.
Jesse Bruchac: I don't get how
Douglas Buchholz: This is Mr. Bowman's ethnic make up
Jesse Bruchac: That's all probability … from a company. Read the link I sent. I don't buy it
Only if we had actual data on Abenakis could we target the group and it’s far from complete
Douglas Buchholz: But again IF the DNA were Native without 3-4 people going back from son to father, to grandfather, to great grandfather = it would show up.
Jesse Bruchac: I think it does it's just not been recorded. If you added us in as native it would be. That's why Lewis is such a mystery to you.
Douglas Buchholz: So what you are implying is that you don't believe the Y is M269 from Europe and you don't believe the results?
Jesse Bruchac: Studies show i
n only 5% percent of natives
have tested. But so few have been tested its non-conclusive. Especially in the
northeast. Where there was earlier contact.
Douglas Buchholz: If the Y markers match the Lexington/ Watertown MA Bowman’s then we know your Bowman's from England.
Jesse Bruchac: Perhaps there will be a probability though
Douglas Buchholz: You’re wrong; probabilities do not exist in Y or mtDNA results
Jesse Bruchac: It's just not fact but likelihood
Jesse Bruchac: It's all math. But I'm not arguing that the bowman line does not go to Europe …
It is very likely it does … from the results we've seen. But so do many natives. So it's a matter of time-frames too, more probability factors. You should read about why tribes don't use DNA
For paternity yes …
Douglas Buchholz: I've read all about tribes not using DNA, and yet contrary to that as a whole, there are MANY people doing DNA testing within those tribes, including the not-so-legit ones. White people claiming to be what they ain't
And like you said, claiming their DNA is native when it never was.
Jesse Bruchac: DNA is not the only factor tribes look at
Jesse Bruchac: I'm fully accepted as Abenaki … By those who I care about.
Jesse Bruchac: Yup it's a long story. Lewis Gill … He was accepted by some … Not all … Some still call the Gill family whites.
Jesse Bruchac: There are tons of Sénécal still here but not related to us. Young and Wood.
Jesse Bruchac: Those are two other families in the cemetery with Lewis Henry Bowman.
Jesse Bruchac: Well the one near his house off Ormsby Road on Cold Hill
Jesse Bruchac: I think there may be a connection to the Young family
Jesse Bruchac: Because he lives right near their cemetery and on their land in Porter Corners, NY
Jesse Bruchac: Maybe he just worked for them. I don't know.
Jesse Bruchac: I should make a trip up there. The stones are really old but I think in the town record
Douglas Buchholz: Because we are talking 1-2 generations it’s not like recombination would affect...
This is why I am telling you 100% that neither Lewis Bowman nor his sons were genetically Native....
Because it would show itself very clearly itself. I even used Gedmatch to see if I could detect it lowering the cM ratio or threshold. And while we know you are descended from Ots-took it’s so far back that recombination would have destroyed any genetic inheritance 3-4 generations down from her, so it is undetectable within the two Bowman testers. But genealogically we know the connection is there ancestrally speaking.
Jesse Bruchac: So if Lewis had any native it's how far back to not show?
Douglas Buchholz: Yet even with Lewis H. Bowman not perhaps being a Bowman, whoever he was, he was not native genetically speaking
Jesse Bruchac: 10 generations? And what are you looking for if all Abenaki DNA is not known
There could be matches … just unrecorded
Douglas Buchholz: Hold on pulling something as a comparative for you.
1. Ots Toch
2. Elizabeth VanSlyck
3. Cornelius VanBuren
4. Aaltje VanNess VanBuren
5. Hendrikje Fonda VanBuren
6. Douwe VanAntwerp
7. Winant Van Antwerp
8. Daniel Wynet Van Antwerp
9. Alice Van Antwerp
10. Jesse Elmer Bowman
11. Marion Flora Bowman
12. Joseph Bruchac
13. Jesse Bowman Bruchac
Douglas Buchholz: Ok so by #7 the DNA is so fractured atDNA autosomal recombination, Ots-Toch (No. 1) is barely going to be possibly detectable in #8 even.
Jesse Bruchac: Got it. But read this:
Jesse Bruchac: Genetic Ancestry Testing – This kind of testing looks at many genes from an individual and compares their sample to a larger database of research information. This test is based on probabilities and can provide information about how different or similar an individual’s DNA is to that of most people within a larger group of people (“population”). However, these results are limited by the information in current databases, many of which do not contain a lot of information for particular groups (AI/ANs among them). This limitation in the data can produce problems for tribes and individuals seeking information as results may not be accurate or even possible to generate given limited availability of comparative data.
Douglas Buchholz: And that is a 10% likelihood that if we even tested #8 that it would show up
Jesse Bruchac: Limited data
Douglas Buchholz: Exactly, that is WHY I was hoping you and your father would test as well, to get a better picture of what’s really going on with Lewis Bowman. Limited data in some ways.
Jesse Bruchac: Not in the ways the companies selling these kits want you to see it.
Jesse Bruchac: They are selling probabilities to people based on their assumptions
Their data sets. I believe the Maliseet are working their DNA now.
Douglas Buchholz: I agree that SOME companies are shady. But I am looking at the Y markers and the Haplo-group … which is very stable over a span of ca. 100 years. We don't have the issues or dynamics of recombination.
Beliefs vs. reality and so on.
Jesse Bruchac: Yup. I'm glad you understand me. Texting can sound snarky.
Jesse Bruchac: I'm not being snarky; just digging at what we know for clarity and pointing out the limits I've seen and wonder about.
Jesse Bruchac: I know I'm Abenaki. I know why. And a lot of people have been hard on me about it for years. I've learned to just be me. If it upsets some … okay I'm good with that.
Douglas Buchholz: That’s up to you and or your father.
Let me play Devil's Advocate. How are you Abenaki Jesse?
Jesse Bruchac: Yes
Douglas Buchholz: Genealogically and or Genetically?
Jesse Bruchac: Can't prove that
Douglas Buchholz: In the heart?
Jesse Bruchac: Yes. Definitely can't prove two of those.But I'll take the cultural. It's what matters most IMHO and that of those I love.
Jesse Bruchac: Working on a film for IPTN with pep about this very topic.
Douglas Buchholz: Kewl. What’s the film about?
Jesse Bruchac: Identity politics
Douglas Buchholz: Yep
Jesse Bruchac: The good, the bad, the ugly
Douglas Buchholz: Well some will condemn me and claim I have an agenda and that I am out to destroy this or that, but that is definitely not my intention.
Jesse Bruchac: But most importantly the struggle for cultural survival in the face of changing blood quantum’s and genetic connections.
Douglas Buchholz: Be that as it may be, as to some people’s perceptions of my research. I don't see them helping me to get the answers either.
Jesse Bruchac: You're a good man with a passion
Douglas Buchholz: Many articles claim Bowman was or is Obomsawin, and no one tried to prove it out.
Jesse Bruchac: Not all the same kind of "fakers"
Douglas Buchholz: I am doing that now
Jesse Bruchac: It doesn't prove out
Douglas Buchholz: Same with the Phelps and Philips. I got the two within one mile of each other in the 1820's
Jesse Bruchac: It was a theory
Douglas Buchholz: Perpetuated as a fact
Jesse Bruchac: A guess. Accepted as fact. Yes perpetuated by many
In fact Rick O’Bomsawin demands in his cousin
But not close enough to not date his daughter [Pepper O’Bomsawin] lol
Douglas Buchholz: ‘Demands in his cousin’?
Jesse Bruchac: I am his cousin that is
Douglas Buchholz: You are speaking of Rick O'Bomsawin?
Jesse Bruchac: Yes
Douglas Buchholz: How so? Interesting....
Jesse Bruchac: He [Rick O’Bomsawin] says we are related. But that is more a statement of respect
We have been close for years and he has appreciated my help.
He once told Joseph Elie Joubert he could prove it, when Elie was on the hunt for my head in the 1990’s
Luckily Elie and I now see eye to eye. He has become like a Grampa to my kids.
Jesse Bruchac: I guess the point I see is, I'm really honored to be accepted by some. Even called family. But I know I cannot, nor can anyone prove that I am. It's something we feel. Complicated yet so simple. Making relatives is an ancient Native tradition, and my dad began making relatives when I was just a wee lad. Maurice Dennis being the first.
Jesse Bruchac: I consider you a relative too, can't prove that one either
Douglas Buchholz: Nope sorry, my genetic DNA doesn't match your Bowman ancestors
Jesse Bruchac: It gets tricky when the whole entitlements, recognition fights, etc kick in.
I'm not in those fights
Jesse Bruchac: As you know. It becomes about power, money, and greed. Casinos!! Never good
Douglas Buchholz: And status and ego and identity appropriation as well
Jesse Bruchac: I do take ego, i.e. Pride in my personal accomplishments. But I can speak the language as a white guy
Jesse Bruchac: They called me the white guy on the set of Saints and Strangers.
Jesse Bruchac: Native humor. We were great friends and I am physically white, just red on the inside.
Jesse Bruchac: I'm actually learning a new dialect for a film this summer. Working with Conor Quin of Portland, Maine on it.
Douglas Buchholz: I've been working on the 2nd Bowman testers’ autosomal results since Sunday evening. What’s the film?
Jesse Bruchac: Can't say anything yet
Jesse Bruchac: Under contract. But, it’s always fun testing a new dialect on my kids. They just seem to get it, which is amazing.
Douglas Buchholz: Well, as I learn more about the Senecal's and Bowman's etc I am mapping it out in comparatives between the genealogies and going after the paper trail documents
Jesse Bruchac: So are these particular Senecal’s for sure? Is Sophie really a Senecal or was that a married name?
Douglas Buchholz: Sénécal dit Laframboise I surmise is her biological maiden name.
This is WHY we are seeing repeated comparatives back into the Sénécal dit Laframboise and Gosselin ancestry with the matches of the two Bowman descendants in both results, on FTDNA and Gedmatch.
If she wasn't a Sénécal dit Laframboise by conception and subsequent birth, we wouldn't be getting that in the genetic matching.
Jesse Bruchac: Nice. So there are matches there. Very good to start to uncover her a bit more
Douglas Buchholz: And genealogically with Edgar Vexter Senecal and his kith and kin going back and forth to Greenfield NY and Rutland etc. And then moving the genealogy back up into Quebec, on several of his grandfather's brothers doing the same... Yeah I think that we have Sophie Senecal's people
Btw. they were NOT native people's either. They were 100% French
I followed genealogical every last one of Joseph Sénécal dit Laframboise and Marie Genevieve Gosselin's ancestors back to France.
Jesse Bruchac: Really … 100%?
Jesse Bruchac: Wow
Douglas Buchholz: Jean Baptiste 'Pierre" Sénécal dit Laframboise was born in 1807. He married twice, a Beauregard and then to a Massé.
Jesse Bruchac: But we don't have her parents … just a connection to these pure French relatives?
Douglas Buchholz: Throughout the matches on FTDNA and a number of them on Gedmatch, Bowman's DNA is matching to people with Gosselin ancestry of Joseph's wife Genevieve.
Jesse Bruchac: Sophie … She's just related through her dad’s line to these Senecal’s by way of probability. We don't know her dads name.
Douglas Buchholz: It’s not a probability Jesse. The DNA segments are being passed down through another tester that matches BOTH Bowman testers.
Jesse Bruchac: They are relatives … just saying we don't have her dad?
Douglas Buchholz: It can't be passed down UNLESS there is a genetic inheritance by both testers.
Douglas Buchholz: Sophie Senecal's parents are # 5 in the above jpeg I just sent
Yes we have her father.
Jesse Bruchac: You know that for sure?
Douglas Buchholz: We are getting Senecal paternal matches as well. Not just the Gosselin side.
Yes I know that definitively
1. Ignace Gosselin – Marie Anne Raté 1. Adrien Sénécal dit Laframboise – Jeanne Lecompte
2. Ignace Gosselin – Marguerite Godbout 2. Étienne Sénécal– Pétronille Milot /Laval
3. Ignace Gosselin – Marie Catherine Rosseau 3. Louis Sénécal – Marie Louise Petit / Lapré
4. Ignace Gosselin – Marie Angélique Plouffe 4. Joseph Sénécal – Marie Charlotte Delagé
5. Marie Josephte Geneviève Gosselin ––– married 1798 ––– 5. Joseph Sénécal dit Laframboise
6. Charles Bowman – Sophie Sénécal dit Laframboise
7. Lewis Henry Bowman – Alice Van Antwerp
8. John Jack Bowman – Katherine Jane Gray 4. Jesse Elmer Bowman – 2m. Marion Dunham
9. Son of … 5. Daughter of … 5. Marion Bowman – Joseph Edward Bruchac II
10. Tester 1 Y/atDNA 6. Tester 2 atDNA 6. Joseph Edward Bruchac III
Jesse Bruchac: That's amazing
Douglas Buchholz: There are certain mathematical rules to autosomal inheritance, sometimes its random sometimes the DNA segment is large enough to be passed down through the generations far longer of time than usually the case
Jesse Bruchac: Well, I so appreciate the new family connection! This is really great to have, wliwni nid8ba!!
Jesse Bruchac: My French pride is soaring tonight
Jesse Bruchac: Peps [Pepper O’Bowsawin] teaching me French so now I have a probable connection to it lol
Jesse Bruchac: Definitely well it's late nid8ba. Time for bed! Wliwni. For all your time seriously thank you.
Douglas Buchholz: "Many articles regarding your father and family claim and imply that Bowman's were Obomsawin's"
Douglas: "How are you Abenaki Jesse? Genealogically? Genetically?
Jesse Bruchac: Can't prove that.
Douglas: "... in the heart?
Jesse Bruchac: Yes, definitely we can't prove that we're Abenakis genealogically or genetically ... but I'll take the cultural. It's what matters most in my humble opinion and that of those I love. We're not all the same kind of "fakers”.
Jesse Bruchac: The Bowman being Obomsawin doesn't prove out
Jesse Bruchac: It was a theory
Jesse Bruchac: A guess
Jesse Bruchac: Accepted as fact
Douglas Buchholz : Perpetuated by your family and naive others as fact ... to as many people as would believe it
Jesse Bruchac: I am really honored to be accepted by some, even called family. But I know I cannot, nor can anyone prove that I am Abenaki.
Jesse Bruchac: It's something we feel. Complicated, yet so simple
Making relatives is an ancient Native tradition.
My Dad began making relatives when I was just a wee lad. Maurice Dennis being the first.
Jesse Bruchac: But I can speak the language as a white guy.
Jesse Bruchac: But most importantly the struggle for cultural survival in the face of changing blood quantum’s, genetic connections
Jesse Bruchac: They called me the white guy on set of "Saints & Strangers." We were great friends and I am physically white, just red on the inside.
Jesse Bruchac: We could work only with what we had and honestly stand by it. Sorry but it's our lives.
Jesse Bruchac: Yes but still have moved forward on a chosen path
Jesse Bruchac: DNA or not, because we believe, and live it. That's the only answer I got.
Jesse Bruchac: You can choose to believe in anything in life. Based on the life my dad raised me in. And his grandfather raised him to find.
Jesse Bruchac: My kids consider themselves Abenaki too. It's how they are being raised with the language and pride in it.
Jesse Bruchac: Well, you didn't have anything to go on (until the recent discoveries in your DNA work) so I understand the process, but it doesn't change anything. What's real is how we live. Not our blood or papers.
Jesse Bruchac: I think many would argue we have helped in many ways and will continue to.
Jesse Bruchac: Facts about the DNA work are not facts they are just results of your research and don't tell the whole truth. Just one lens to look through. You have a clear opinion, and that's fine.
Jesse Bruchac: What makes someone Abenaki? And who decides?
Douglas Buchholz: I think what I am saying is IF what you stated yesterday that what has been SAID was theory and guessing, then where are the FACTS
Douglas Buchholz: What makes someone Abenaki ... TRUTH and INTEGRITY.
Jesse Bruchac: We didn't have all the facts because they were never available, nor do you.
Douglas Buchholz: Abenakis have truth and integrity.
Jesse Bruchac: Are you seriously getting on a high horse?
Jesse Bruchac: You have some answers from your work, and those answers are making you judgmental.
Jesse Bruchac: We still don't know everything. My dad took a leap of faith in his beliefs. I have said that, as has he.
Jesse Bruchac: And with a good heart he began working towards investing in his native identity
Jesse Bruchac: I will always say native but the DNA is a tool that would be great if it showed it ... But if it doesn't then that's just not the only measure I turn to that's all. In for life and hope I help along the way.
Jesse Bruchac: Like I said long ago ... Do you believe in God?
Douglas Buchholz: If what has been published and presented in the Bruchac presentations and books etc, have been merely theories and guesses, WHY were those guesses and theories implied to be facts, when they weren't?
And why weren't those implied statements clarified and corrected throughout the years, as being only theories and guesses. Etc.
I mean I get that you are doing what you do and choices are made to do this or that. Yet what has been written and repeatedly presented by your father, your Marge, and yourself ... has been presented as though it were facts.
Jesse Bruchac: I think that's something you should ask my dad honestly
Douglas Buchholz: Such as "St. Francis" or that he was an Abenaki. And you have stated as of yesterday that it has been theory and guesses. I am asking YOU. Your father Joseph Bruchac, (as you well) know, will not speak with me.
Jesse Bruchac: It was based on what he saw in the Civil War pension records.
Douglas Buchholz: He thinks that I have an agenda and that I'm out to destroy your family. There is no St. Francis in the Pension Jesse. Lewis clearly stated or implied that he was born in East Farnham, Qc. on July 20, 1844
Douglas Buchholz: NOT "St. Francis" at all.
Jesse Bruchac: I think that this could be clarified and was something he suspected but that was his choice, not mine. I also for a time said and am on the record saying I thought we were from Obomsawin’s. It was a really strong belief of ours for many years.
Jesse Bruchac: We have been trying. Working though, at the same time and I have no regrets.
Jesse Bruchac: I've learned and taught the Abenaki language to many people because of this unproven Abenaki ... Call it a passion.
Jesse Bruchac: Bowman is Not Obomsawin is known now for sure, and will be reflected in his future work as well as mine. I think I pulled back from that theory about a decade ago when it looked unlikely.
Jesse Bruchac: I appreciate the work. I meant that connections were made on faith. That we could not prove ...
Jesse Bruchac: I think that is common in family genealogies. So many say or decide they have royal lines
Jesse Bruchac: But can't totally prove it. We went on the “facts” at hand.
Douglas Buchholz: I shouldn't have to go hunting for the proof of this St. Francis theory or the like. I shouldn't have to ask to see the substantiation of something stated in multiple books etc.
Jesse Bruchac: Bowman’s Store says that.
Douglas Buchholz: And this isn't just about Bowman's or Bruchac's but also about Frederick Matthew Wiseman (PhD), his lies and implied shit, and a thousand other dynamics and “I’m-an-Abenaki” peddlers and pushers.
Jesse Bruchac: You don't have to ask anything. You choose to. You don't have to police the Abenaki.
Douglas Buchholz: I never implied I was the police of the Abenakis
Jesse Bruchac: No one hired you to judge … you chose to and that's your passion
Douglas Buchholz: They can do that well enough on their own
Jesse Bruchac: And we do.
Jesse Bruchac: My family is unique like the Wiseman’s etc.
Jesse Bruchac: The New England native heritage dynamic is certainly amazing and complicated. But those who claim their native heritage have historically done it based on faith when other evidence was not available.
Jesse Bruchac: My dad started thinking it was just Mohawk. Then Homer Saint Francis sent John Moody to visit us and he convinced my dad he was Abenaki and to enroll. He gave us a whole bunch of information, as he did with many.
Jesse Bruchac: It changed my dad and our family path.
Jesse Bruchac: He was very convincing. Gave us all cards etc.
Jesse Bruchac: That was when my dad met Maurice Dennis and started learning about Abenaki stories and published The Wind Eagle.
Jesse Bruchac: I don't have all the answers. But I'm always as honest as I can be. Total open book. I'm not ashamed of my dad or his choices but they were his, as mine are mine.
Jesse Bruchac: We were on the path and so proud to be. It is as the Abenaki in VT revolution (You remember?)
Jesse Bruchac: A different time ... But I have just found my little part with the language and songs and stories which I love.
Douglas Buchholz: When you stated your father accused me of having an agenda and out to destroy your family, I was like WTF?!
Jesse Bruchac: And will continue to work to preserve. No worries on that he just has friends who you have looked into and he has heard from John Moody about you. John [Moody] says bad things about you btw. But I'm sure you suspected as much.
Jesse Bruchac: He affected a lot of people including me.
Jesse Bruchac: John Scott Moody got me into the language, which I am very thankful for.
Douglas Buchholz: Only reason John Moody says bad things about me is because he KNOWS I know what I speak of. I don't operate on theory or guesses.
Jesse Bruchac: Everything in life is a long shot. You never really know. I'm willing to roll the dice and believe I guess.
Jesse Bruchac: So many with native blood don't care ... I care and have little blood a drop.
Jesse Bruchac: I'd rather care and be a wannabe. Makes the mainstream have to deal with and see that Native traditions are still affecting and alive and influential. Desirable to be included in.
Jesse Bruchac: We know that for 5 generations from the testers there is no native.
Jesse Bruchac: Are they the same generation from as my dad?
Douglas Buchholz: Clarification ... WE KNOW there is no native genetic contribution from Lewis Henry Bowman back five of his ancestors backwards.
Jesse Bruchac: So that would mean that at most my dad could be 1/64 native if there was a native ancestor in the sixth generation back?
Douglas Buchholz: The testers (two of them) are the same generational descent, yes, as your father.
Jesse Bruchac: You didn't test Lewis Henry Bowman.
Douglas Buchholz: Say Lewis is #1, so you go 2, 3, 4 ... Much like Lewis (1.), Jesse (2.), Marion (3.), Joseph III (your Dad) (No. 4) and then you Jesse would be No. 5.
Jesse Bruchac: So at most we can say that at 6 generations there might have been another unknown native.
Douglas Buchholz: It can't be there, because it wasn't there to begin with, due to recombination.
Jesse Bruchac: Right so DNA won't help in this.
Jesse Bruchac: This is why we can't see the genetic contribution from Ots-toch.
Jesse Bruchac: Only the Y-DNA line which goes to Europe.
Jesse Bruchac: I appreciate the honesty and just was clarifying my feelings as to my personal choices to identify as an Abenaki that's all.
Douglas Buchholz: If you don't believe the results of the DNA that I am sharing with you. My strong suggestion, respectfully, is do the DNA tests and see for yourselves those results.
Jesse Bruchac: No … I do believe them … I'm just trying to get a full understanding of what it means and putting it into perspective.
Jesse Bruchac: As you said the truth about the non-connection to O’Bomsawin is important and the fact of who Sophie is.
Jesse Bruchac: I accept it.
Jesse Bruchac: Do you think Sophie Senecal's husband Joseph or Charles might have taken the name Bowman?
Jesse Bruchac: He obviously had a white male ancestor due to the Y line going to Europe.
Jesse Bruchac: But I'm thinking he may have been part black, can we see any signs of this? If not, can we find any known black families in the area who we can try to match him to in the Family Finder.
Just a thought: to locate whether Bowman is the real name or an assumed name.
Jesse Bruchac: I'm going to share all this with my dad tomorrow it's a lot of information but I want him up to speed.
Jesse Bruchac: I think the story is amazing and I just want to ensure I have it straight
Jesse Bruchac: To tell my dad so he knows the facts as you have uncovered via Y-DNA and Family Finder
Jesse Bruchac: I got to tell Pepper Obomsawin too we are in no way related. She comes in tomorrow for the weekend.
Jesse Bruchac: For 5 generations back from my dad there are no native ancestors ... We know this ... because of what genetic test?
Jesse Bruchac: There is therefore no Abenaki for at least five generations back ... Fact? No Native?
Jesse Bruchac: There is NO Native American DNA in the two testers.
Douglas Buchholz: I would say that within the time range we are looking at, yes there is certainty…
Because it’s not like the Great-Grandson is going to lose that much genetic data from their Great-Grandparents. As you step back further and further generationally the DNA segments get smaller and smaller and smaller ... the genetic ability to see back gets murkier.
Jesse Bruchac: So I can tell him for certain that there is no chance he is more than 1/64 Indian. With certainty? Maybe less. Based on the results.
Jesse Bruchac: Right, He's definitely not full blooded. Could be small part black or native or who knows what.
Jesse Bruchac: If it turns out the only native we have is 1600's and we can really prove that, then I'd like my dad to know and be able to explain it.
Jesse Bruchac: I think going from someone who thought for sure we were Abenaki, to finding out we aren't, is doable.
Jesse Bruchac: Would change some things but not everything. And it would be reflected in my Dad’s writing.
Jesse Bruchac: He writes about everything as you know
Douglas Buchholz: What I am doing as a person ought to have been done YEARS AGO way before I came here.
Jesse Bruchac: I know you understand. I think the technology wasn't here. This is a new tool and it's just being built. As new people's data is entered.
Jesse Bruchac: I'll still teach the language, just as a white guy with a distant native ancestor. Worst case scenario ... But I'm sticking with my passion.
Jesse Bruchac: Always will consider myself part of the Abenaki though, as it’s been so much a part of my life.
Jesse Bruchac: Just clearly not provable.
Douglas Buchholz: I think that the reason why John Moody badmouths me is because I don't play secrets and hiding the whatever.
Jesse Bruchac: I understand. John Moody messed with a lot of lives my friend. Yours and mine.
Jesse Bruchac: Our family is out of it for the most part. But being pulled back in now to Odanak.
But I can teach songs and help whatever we discover.
Jesse Bruchac: The VT thing has gone nutty.
Douglas Buchholz: John Scott Moody isn’t any black man either
Jesse Bruchac: I heard he proved it. That's what he told me.
Douglas Buchholz: Thinking about this morning when last evening you asked me "So I can tell him for certain there is no chance he is more than 1/64 Indian?" Here is my answer (and I know you are good at math):
1. Ots Toch - married a Dutchman VanSlyck =she was 100% Mohawk Indian woman
2. Elizabeth VanSlyck - married a VanBuren =so she would be 50% Mohawk Indian woman
3. Cornelius VanBuren - married a Dutch woman =he would be 1/4% Mohawk Indian man
4. Aaltje VanNess VanBuren = she would be 1/8th Mohawk Indian woman
5. Hendrikje Fonda VanBuren = 1/16th Mohawk Indian woman
6. Douwe VanAntwerp = 1/36th Mohawk Indian
7. Winant Van Antwerp = A drop 1/64th = "Damn near nothing"
8. Daniel Wynet Van Antwerp = 1/128th = "Tiny Drop"
9. Alice Van Antwerp - 1/256th = Her was husband Lewis H. Bowman Sr.
10. Jesse Elmer Bowman -- 1/512th = He ain't no Mohawk or an Abenaki !
11. Marion Flora Bowman - 1/1024th = She swore up and down she weren't no Indian!
12. Joseph Edward Bruchac III - 1/2048th = There ain't no NDN drops left
13. Jesse Bowman Bruchac - 1/4096th = “Abenaki” based on Beliefs, Theories, Guesses
Douglas Buchholz: So you do the math.
To claim that that Joseph Edward Bruchac III (the Author, Presenter, etc) is even 1/64th is not accurate.
Not even his great grandfather Lewis Henry Bowman Sr. was even a 64th if we go by what we actually KNOW for a fact, historically, genealogically and genetically.
(Remember, I don't go by theories, guesses, belief, faith or conjecture, suppositions or stories i.e. "oral history")
Jesse Bruchac: I just meant that it proves that at most, he might be 1/64th. Since we can prove he is not anything in 5 generations, and myself in 6 generations.
Douglas Buchholz: Jesse Elmer Bowman is not even a "1/64th"
The ONLY native ancestry that is known and detectable genealogically speaking, is Ots-Tooch, the Mohawk Indian woman.
Jesse Bruchac: I'm saying the unknown is beyond 5 generations back. I'm just saying 6 generations back that there are still unknowns.
Jesse Bruchac: There are chances that other Van Antwerp's or other 10 gens deep etc might of had other native lives we don't know about
Jesse Bruchac: We know that no one is Indian 5 generations back from him but we don't know that everyone 6 back is not.
Whatever may have been there or not is not showing up because it is way back.
I think the reality is we are a family that became involved and fully a part of the Abenaki based on faith and acceptance by some.
Done work in the communities ... which will continue.
But have discovered the theories and stories were not correct based on DNA.
While we have a distant native ancestor who can be traced, it is from the 1600's. That is what we know. It is actually all we have known for sure since May 2009 when you told me of that Mohawk ancestor, Ots-Toch.
I think it's a great chapter in the whole identity search so many of us are on.
Jesse Bruchac: I have a question regarding the Bowman's who've tested ... to tell my dad?
How are they [the Bowman genetic testers] related to Lewis Henry Bowman? They are from one of his son's son's obviously.
Douglas Buchholz: One is a direct male. One is not. They are first cousins to one another and they descend from Jack Bowman and Catherine Gray.
Jesse Bruchac: So only one Bowman has tested with Y-DNA line?
Douglas Buchholz: You can see the markers for the Y of the Bowman tester by googling "460662 Lewis Bowman."
The results are online now, in the Bowman Surname Project. It is Haplo - group R-M269 at this point of the testing.
Jesse Bruchac: Looking forward to more info and it is a change that we will reflect, in everything we do, now that the new information is being obtained.
He was really interested in the Katherine Gray might of had kids with Jesse idea raised by Jack
We have distant native ancestry. That's all that can be proven.
Jesse Bruchac: And the tribe Abenaki looks to have been wrong.
As things roll out and more info is confirmed I'll get it on my bowman page too
You're doing a very thorough job all the way I know and I appreciate it.
When it goes up I may just use it as my reference to make sure I get the details right.
Douglas Buchholz: We all know your family is very close friends with John and Donna (nee:Carvalho) Moody
Jesse Bowman: I still do programs for him at Dartmouth and that's it. He is working to save the language so I support it.
Douglas Buchholz: Yeah like as if we need white people to save the Abenaki.
Jesse Bowman: I think he [John Scott Moody] was dishonest to many about their genealogies
Douglas Buchholz: That’s an understatement
Jesse Bowman: If it turns out we have 100% proof we are not Abenaki we will say it
Douglas Buchholz: I don't think you have a choice in the matter to be honest
Jesse Bowman: I just talked with someone who doesn't like me this winter and said all I know is we have some native ancestry. It's the truth.
Jesse Bruchac: We thought it was Abenaki. My dad is interested in a second book on Bowman's store. It will include this and our families’ journey to find the truth whatever it is.
It might be an even more interesting book now that it seems we were wrong on several claims and righting them is important!
Jesse Bowman: I'm sure experts from his Publishing Houses will pick it apart to make sure it's accurate before he makes any grand changes to his personal identification as an Abenaki etc.
That's a big step that must be verified.
Jesse Bowman: Once verified it will change things for sure. I'll still teach Abenaki though … but just to help.
Jesse Bowman: I'll be another Gordon Day lol. Still support and help in every way I can.
If they prove to be wrong then they were wrong.
It's a complex web and you're doing the hard work to untangle it.
There is no provable evidence
And it is likely wrong
Jesse Bruchac: The mistakes of making false claims has been done by me, I accept them. But if I'm wrong I'll say it.
Jesse Bruchac: I can only speak for myself in saying those times I claimed my Abenaki pride all came from a place that I believed was well intentioned and based on what I knew. I connected dots at times and if those connections were wrong then I was wrong. I am just again need to be sure.
The mistakes of making false claims? Let's EXPLORE that in the next post ...